Gentleman, It's Time for the "Real American Hero," Line to Be Retired

Fred Broca

Enlisted
Jun 2, 2012
394
1
18
The Empyrean
I originally posted this on The Tank, and I'm curious to see how you feel about the matter.

or at least put on hiatus. You know how in comics, the new movement is to start a line over with a "# 1" issue under the guise of "breathing new life into the series," "attracting new readership," and all of the possible stories have been told under that particular editorial direction? I feel that's legitimately true with G.I. JOE, Hasbro and Larry Hama have fucked around and over the course of a thirty year period has allowed JOE of be piegon hole into this one particular area. Which is ninjas, S.E., Duke, and COBRA Command as the protagonist.

Mind you, G.I. JOE is the reason I collect comic books, action figures, and related memorabilia, so the brand is near and dear to my heart, but I feel for the overall prosperity and longevity of the brand, it's time for G. I. JOE to become something else.

The thing is that "something else," can't involve ARAH because ARAH is always "x" in most people's mind. S.E. is a special ops dude with ninja training, Duke is "overrated," hated by some of the JOE fandom is always captured, and is field commander, C.C. is the head of group ruthless organization that wants to control the world, Destro supplies the weapons, Zartan is a master of disguise, the Dreadnoks like chocolate doughnuts and grape soda. These are things that are associated with ARAH and when they're not included in and/or changed in an other interpretation of G. I. JOE i.e. RoC we bitch to high heaven about the needless changes to the source material.

However, if you do something different, you have free reign to do whatever you want because it's a new telling of the story. The biggest failing of RoC was that it had too many "WTF," moments. In order for that particular version of G. I. JOE to have been acceptable to fandom, there would have had to been about two or three ARAH JOEs with some new recruits and going after an entirely new enemy you eventually tie that enemy into COBRA.

Or if Hasbro is insistent upon using ARAH, I think they need to embrace what ARAH is, (military special ops team,) and they need to give under used characters some shine. Not that he's was under used, putting Roadblock in the forefront is a step in the right direction, and I strongly support that movement. I know it's a reach, but I love to see the JOEs fight somebody other than COBRA also.

The bad thing about G. I. JOE is that Larry Hama gave the Joeverse character and depth, the good thing about G. I. JOE is Larry Hama gave the Joeverse character and depth. Now if a writer keeps focusing on the same characters and themes, things can get quite constricting real fast, however, G. I. JOE has a plethora of characters and myriad of stories to tell, I think it's time to start to delved into some of those untold stories.

In the interest of full disclosure, I haven't read or seen every JOE comic or cartoon, so some of the things I've mentioned my have started to have been already addressed.
 

NSA

Brotherhood
Admin
Mar 13, 2011
28,623
969
113
Southern California
www.fighting118th.com
That's YOU over there? Haha I saw this post the other day.

I generally agreed with the first few posters over there.

They've tried to reinvent the brand to varying degrees over the years, and none succeeded. I have to imagine that, as a brand, GI JOE has been the strongest it's been in years during and immediately following the 25th anniversary.

Even though we've been getting some shitty figures etc for some time now, the fact that stuff is actually IN stores and BEING stocked is a positive sign. Prior to the 25th line, I can't remember ever seeing (or caring) about GI JOE as a national brand after I was a kid.

That being said, I would love for them to focus more on the "Special Missions Force" aspect of GI JOE, especially over the terrible terrible ninja aspect. But.. in our world today, pro-military stuff WITH EVIL DANGEROUS guns is suspect at the moment. Any company would be hesitant to throw tons of money behind a rah-rah shoot-em-up franchise.. aimed at children (Us collectors be damned!).

The characters are essential, it's not "GI JOE" without them. Figure wise would I like less Duke's and Snake Eyesseses? Sure, we have more than enough already for 10 more movies. Story wise.. I think it's fine, if anything I wish they'd stick closer to the ARAH profiles of the characters. Duke should never be a "Captain", or any other Officer-level douche. He's supposed to be an E-9 or whatever.

The small details made the characters seem unique and special, if you start removing those all you are left with is a shell of a brand. Scarlett IS NOT from the South?! What the eff?
 

Falcone

Green Beret
Feb 20, 2012
1,735
0
0
39
WI
They have tried this with GI Joe in the past with GI Joe Extreme and Sgt Savage. Neither were really all that related to ARAH and were their own thing, a complete reimagining with new characters.
 

The Ewokhunter

Crazyass Cracker
Mar 14, 2011
10,569
6
38
50
thingsatwistedewokwouldsay.blogspot.com
There's a reason why Star wars and GI JOE and Barbie are consistent sellers, it's virtually the same when it was in it's hey day. Bring a few tweaks and the like, they are what they are.

GI JOE re-imagined themselves a couple times and failed. They come back for the 25th line and completely bought back it's popularity.
 

MMorelock66

Isn't a Gijoe fan
Apr 4, 2012
4,661
2
0
the land of Virginia
I will always stand by this. Pursuit of Cobra was the greatest release of Gijoe I've ever seen. Fantastic updates, great new concepts, tons of usable weaponry. Everything you would want, finally available.
 

Mandingo Rex

★★★★★
Founder
Mar 14, 2011
14,392
7
38
42
Gone Baby, Gone
While I don't mind re-imaginings or updates even, ROC was too far from the visuals and personality of a lot of what GI Joe was. Bad director plus bad character selection, dialogue, design, casting and awful CGI were just part of the problems with ROC. Even if they'd had more iconic characters, it wouldn't have fixed that reboot.

Resolute and Renegades were not bad cartoon reimaginings. I would've been okay with Resolute completely ditching the canon from ARAH and doing their own thing. Renegades just needed more characters in the team rotating out, plus the A-Team thing got old fast. I was curious to see where a second season would go.

The reason that Joe, Transformers, Marvel, MOTUC, TMNT, Thundercats, what have you... are all successful is that the 80s did seem to really nail a lot of basic stories that appealed to kids, plus they have parents' nostalgia driving the excitement nowadays for all these reboots.

Sort of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality.

Also, I'm an ARAH F.A.G. so I completely disagree with this from the start! :D
 

Giga Bread

Mega Calories!
Aug 20, 2011
6,368
20
38
44
I think they need to move away from the same 10 characters for awhile. GI Joe was it's most successful when you had to wait 3-4 years between Snake Eyes figures.
 

Giga Bread

Mega Calories!
Aug 20, 2011
6,368
20
38
44
Blame the suits for that shit. trying to conceive a different Snake eyes in hundreds of different versions just to put on in every wave.

I always kind of assumed that Joe, in the first 8 years, had very little suit interference.
 

Monkeywrench

00coathanger
Mar 14, 2011
25,764
10
0
I will always stand by this. Pursuit of Cobra was the greatest release of Gijoe I've ever seen. Fantastic updates, great new concepts, tons of usable weaponry. Everything you would want, finally available.

I read that has "Rise of Cobra" first. You my friend were going to get a infraction. Luckily I re-read it :D
 

Monkeywrench

00coathanger
Mar 14, 2011
25,764
10
0
I really enjoyed Renegades. That was a "re-imaging" that stayed true to the history of ARAH. If they can do something like that, I'm all for it.

Another option that I wouldn't mind is a new theme and a new cast of characters. Create a new team, new villain and a new setting. Yes I realize they did this with Extreme and Savage. This time, don't make it suck :D
 

G.I.*EDDIE

gobbles a LOT of cock
Founder
Mar 14, 2011
43,432
428
83
S.E. Mich :(
That being said, I would love for them to focus more on the "Special Missions Force" aspect of GI JOE, especially over the terrible terrible ninja aspect. But.. in our world today, pro-military stuff WITH EVIL DANGEROUS guns is suspect at the moment. Any company would be hesitant to throw tons of money behind a rah-rah shoot-em-up franchise.. aimed at children (Us collectors be damned!).

I really don't know what they're gonna do with Joe after the movie...they've dumped TONS of money into the film, so it HAS to be released, and the toys HAVE to be released...but after the Sandy thing, and the insane new rules at schools (kids can't throw IMAGINARY grenades??..WTH?!), I can't imagine Hasbro is gonna push Joe to much...though I guess that depends heavily on sales...maybe they will go back to aiming the line to collectors?
 

Giga Bread

Mega Calories!
Aug 20, 2011
6,368
20
38
44
I really enjoyed Renegades. That was a "re-imaging" that stayed true to the history of ARAH. If they can do something like that, I'm all for it.

Another option that I wouldn't mind is a new theme and a new cast of characters. Create a new team, new villain and a new setting. Yes I realize they did this with Extreme and Savage. This time, don't make it suck :D

Or maybe do like any other hero line and not make just one villain/threat.
 

NSA

Brotherhood
Admin
Mar 13, 2011
28,623
969
113
Southern California
www.fighting118th.com
I think the way they can market/sell product is WAY different than in the 1980's.

In the 80's, you maybe got 80% of a wave or something like that during a WHOLE year. If you were a lucky kid who got to go to the store a lot, or had people buying you lots of stuff you might get a complete wave of figures, but most people had to do with what they got for their birthdays/Christmas. So it was a big deal if you got Snake Eyes, because fuckall if you knew when you'd see him again.

Now they release a wave of 10 new figures every couple of months. When you start sticking ANOTHER Snake Eyes in the damn assortment, when you damn well know we got one in the last waves and another one 3 waves ago.. ugh. Character overkill.

Like Cobra Commander.. there was the solid head guy, then the hooded mask.. and then nothing until the Armored one came out years later. It made you appreciate what you had to an extent.

Now they're just everywhere. Oooo it's blue! Now he's black! There is a damn Snake Eyes that comes with the stupid alpha vehicle.. then there's one that comes in the three-pack, then there's a carded one.. ugh. ENOUGH!
 

NSA

Brotherhood
Admin
Mar 13, 2011
28,623
969
113
Southern California
www.fighting118th.com
Also, I agree that PoC was the best thing in a LONG time.

Had the great ARAH basis, but wasn't afraid to move into modern military settings. The sculpts were amazing, and the accessories! OH the accessories!

Not sure we'll see another line like that. The fabled 3rd wave from Retaliation looks great.. so we'll see what comes after that.

The only thing that would have made PoC perfect is if they (A) hadn't killed it early, and (B) had kept actual filecards on the back. With RoC and everything afterwards it was just a joke. I'm half glad they got rid of them all-together with Retaliation.
 

Mandingo Rex

★★★★★
Founder
Mar 14, 2011
14,392
7
38
42
Gone Baby, Gone
POC was definitely hit or miss with me, though. For every Snow Job, Shock Trooper, Snake Eyes ("ultimate commando") and Low-Light we got, we also got that red Alley-Viper repaint (absolutely awful, I would've taken one in grays or actual urban camo), Firefly, Flip-waist-action Storm Shadow/Jungle Storm Shadow (take your pick) and Snowbunny Destro.

It wasn't as lackluster as ROC's main figures, nor as lame as the lacks-articulation figures from Retaliation, but it at least tried some new things. I feel like some were great additions, yet others were really big fails.

I also wasn't a big fan of that weird Falconer Zartan. It did give us some decent Dukes for the first time in a long time, though. I dunno, I think the shifting of gears from ROC's "trail-off" line to a non-film-tie-in "reimagining" series was a really big hiccup that could've been a lot smoother had it lasted longer, or not had the movie crap holding it back from the beginning.
 

K-Tiger

All solutions are final.
Founder
Mar 14, 2011
31,266
190
63
Times change. People forget Joe had been flailing for years when they tried Extreme and Sgt. Savage. It sure as shit ain't "morning in America" anymore, and we don't have the spectre of the communism to kick around. What we have is a "war" with religious extremists in an age of political correctness run amok.

Kids have smart phones, 7th generation home gaming consoles, 500+ channels of cable/satellite television and the internet. Toys aren't a long-term things for kids anymore. Power Rangers have been running nearly unabated for TWENTY YEARS. Why? because they change everything but the colors ever 12-18 months for a new group of youngins. They've been doing the nostalgia market for Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers for about 6 years, now.


ARAH is pretty much a nostalgia act at this point. This movie may seed some future collectors, but on the whole we're gonna be like Gene Autry fans one day. Be happy that Hasbro even bothers to keep Joe going in any format, because one day they're gonna be like Rocklords, Dino Riders and Z-bots.
 

WVMojo

Mocha Viper
Jul 20, 2011
4,004
3
38
Like MW said, I thought Renegades did a great job in bringing ARAH inspired characters into a new generation and storyline. I thought the idea of having Cobra as a huge corporation was a nice touch. It's a shame they didn't get more out of it, but again, Hasbro finally has a show back on TV, with no toys on the shelves.

It seems that everything they have done with GI Joe has been a missed opportunity. They bring out the 25th Anniversary line, and the figures get bought up quickly. Not too many figures (Buzzer) peg warmed. There was enough interest in GI Joe that they greenlit what could have been a major transformation to GI Joe and what did we get? A direct to dvd quality movie with bad acting and Robocop suits. While there were some decent RoC figures that made it out, by and large they were pretty shitty and even today people are reporting RoC figures still on shelves.

PoC was great, even with the few misses. But again, it wasn't tied to any other media. Piss poor timing coming between RoC and Renegades.

All we can hope is that the film explodes and generates new figs for a couple more years. At least GI Joe is still getting multiple enemy figures. God forbid the day we get an Avengers-esque line where we have a shit ton of hero variants and one baddie figure.

Going forward, I really think GI Joe should become that modern spec ops team. Whether they want to admit it or not, kids are playing shooters. No kid would play with a GI Joe toy when the parent lets them play Call of Duty. I play with my kids quite a bit and we'll have a huge GI Joe battle all over the living room. They could both be having fun and I could look at my son and say you want to play xbox, and he's already cleaning up (I tried it once, he started scooping guys up and putting them away and I said forget it you're not playing).


Life with / after RockBlock -

I think a skylanders type game would actually be very beneficial for getting kids back into the GI Joe mythos. There's enough characters to pull it off. Granted they would be fairly shitty figures and wouldn't help us out much, but I bet that line could easily help sustain the figures we'd want.

And put out an RTS game (stay away from shooters because they'd never compete) with GI Joe vehicles and characters (similar to the online Spec Ops game) and let us have at it Command and Conquer style.
 

The Ewokhunter

Crazyass Cracker
Mar 14, 2011
10,569
6
38
50
thingsatwistedewokwouldsay.blogspot.com
better yet, re-release this Gem







Good times, good times.
 

MMorelock66

Isn't a Gijoe fan
Apr 4, 2012
4,661
2
0
the land of Virginia
POC was definitely hit or miss with me, though. For every Snow Job, Shock Trooper, Snake Eyes ("ultimate commando") and Low-Light we got, we also got that red Alley-Viper repaint (absolutely awful, I would've taken one in grays or actual urban camo), Firefly, Flip-waist-action Storm Shadow/Jungle Storm Shadow (take your pick) and Snowbunny Destro.

It wasn't as lackluster as ROC's main figures, nor as lame as the lacks-articulation figures from Retaliation, but it at least tried some new things. I feel like some were great additions, yet others were really big fails.

I also wasn't a big fan of that weird Falconer Zartan. It did give us some decent Dukes for the first time in a long time, though. I dunno, I think the shifting of gears from ROC's "trail-off" line to a non-film-tie-in "reimagining" series was a really big hiccup that could've been a lot smoother had it lasted longer, or not had the movie crap holding it back from the beginning.


There was quite a few sad figures in PoC. I thought Firefly was cool, a nice futuristic take. He's not my default Fly, but he wasn't garbage like the tornado kick fuckers.
 

WVMojo

Mocha Viper
Jul 20, 2011
4,004
3
38
Giving this a little more thought and to more address the idea of where to take GI Joe -

If Hasbro wont go the Modern Warfare Spec Ops Battlefield look and feel, maybe the time is right for a more Action Team oriented approach. Back in the 70's when that launched, the social climate at the time didn't benefit a military line of toys. Maybe we're getting there again. Backpacks, tents, space shuttles, bring it all back into the modern age. How about a high altitude edge of space Red Bull jumping 1:18th figure?
Make some environmentally friendly tree hugger figures with protest signs. Instead of guns give them laptops and bongs. Oh man how about an organic farmer playset that comes with a bearded hippy with an articulated wife figure with a manish face?

Anyway...just thinking out loud as it were.

But the potential for what the AT could be might be interesting. Gear it towards extreme sports figures (rock climbing, repelling, skydiving, that one crazy ass guy with the squirrel suit). those could be some good figures with awesome accessories. Stuff that we could use, modify, etc.
 

Monkeywrench

00coathanger
Mar 14, 2011
25,764
10
0
Like MW said, I thought Renegades did a great job in bringing ARAH inspired characters into a new generation and storyline. I thought the idea of having Cobra as a huge corporation was a nice touch. It's a shame they didn't get more out of it, but again, Hasbro finally has a show back on TV, with no toys on the shelves.

It seems that everything they have done with GI Joe has been a missed opportunity. They bring out the 25th Anniversary line, and the figures get bought up quickly. Not too many figures (Buzzer) peg warmed. There was enough interest in GI Joe that they greenlit what could have been a major transformation to GI Joe and what did we get? A direct to dvd quality movie with bad acting and Robocop suits. While there were some decent RoC figures that made it out, by and large they were pretty shitty and even today people are reporting RoC figures still on shelves.

PoC was great, even with the few misses. But again, it wasn't tied to any other media. Piss poor timing coming between RoC and Renegades.

All we can hope is that the film explodes and generates new figs for a couple more years. At least GI Joe is still getting multiple enemy figures. God forbid the day we get an Avengers-esque line where we have a shit ton of hero variants and one baddie figure.

Going forward, I really think GI Joe should become that modern spec ops team. Whether they want to admit it or not, kids are playing shooters. No kid would play with a GI Joe toy when the parent lets them play Call of Duty. I play with my kids quite a bit and we'll have a huge GI Joe battle all over the living room. They could both be having fun and I could look at my son and say you want to play xbox, and he's already cleaning up (I tried it once, he started scooping guys up and putting them away and I said forget it you're not playing).


Life with / after RockBlock -

I think a skylanders type game would actually be very beneficial for getting kids back into the GI Joe mythos. There's enough characters to pull it off. Granted they would be fairly shitty figures and wouldn't help us out much, but I bet that line could easily help sustain the figures we'd want.

And put out an RTS game (stay away from shooters because they'd never compete) with GI Joe vehicles and characters (similar to the online Spec Ops game) and let us have at it Command and Conquer style.


Amen Brother!

I agree with everything you said. So many missed opportunities.
 

Monkeywrench

00coathanger
Mar 14, 2011
25,764
10
0
Giving this a little more thought and to more address the idea of where to take GI Joe -

If Hasbro wont go the Modern Warfare Spec Ops Battlefield look and feel, maybe the time is right for a more Action Team oriented approach. Back in the 70's when that launched, the social climate at the time didn't benefit a military line of toys. Maybe we're getting there again. Backpacks, tents, space shuttles, bring it all back into the modern age. How about a high altitude edge of space Red Bull jumping 1:18th figure?
Make some environmentally friendly tree hugger figures with protest signs. Instead of guns give them laptops and bongs. Oh man how about an organic farmer playset that comes with a bearded hippy with an articulated wife figure with a manish face?

Anyway...just thinking out loud as it were.

But the potential for what the AT could be might be interesting. Gear it towards extreme sports figures (rock climbing, repelling, skydiving, that one crazy ass guy with the squirrel suit). those could be some good figures with awesome accessories. Stuff that we could use, modify, etc.

I would not like this lol
 

WVMojo

Mocha Viper
Jul 20, 2011
4,004
3
38
I would not like this lol

I was throwing that out there in fun (hippy figs) but also to start some discussion. What could GI Joe become and survive? Extreme, Sigma 6, Sgt. Savage. - all re-imagined and all failed. They even tried expanding the ARAH line as it was dying (Dino Hunters, Space Aliens, hell even Anti-Drug units) and none of those helped the line stay relevant.

I am an analyst by trade, so looking at data and coming up with conclusions is part of what I do, but there's also got to be some common sense involved. We will never have the chance to see how and why Hasbro is making their decisions regarding their toy lines, but damned if they haven't made some piss poor decisions with this one. That's what happens when money and shareholders outweigh the common sense approach.

If knowing is half the battle, then not knowing and making piss poor decisions accounts for the other 75%.

Where's the data that shows a large section of their target market is playing M rated video games? I'm sure it's there, they are just choosing not to look at it to see how they could leverage a military themed toy line to appeal to a kid who is sitting in front of the TV shooting others in 1080p with all the blood and gore and cursing that is typical of the modern shooters. Does Hasbro need to go that far in order to appeal? No, but they could start gearing their product to at least make those kids take notice (if you could get them out of the electronics / games section at the brick and mortar stores).

Hasbro was obviously making money off of 7.99 and 8.99 PoC figures, or else we wouldn't have had so many waves. Why not repeat that same model and expand the line? I'm not happy paying 10.00 for a figure. I'd be willing to pay that for the better PoC figures that come with a bunch of accessories.

Maybe Hasbro will just submit to the idea that adults are buying these figures, and the only way to really keep making money on this line is to give the true market what they want.

EDIT - and for God's sake put the product they are making readily available on their HTS website even if its in a pre-order / delayed shipping scenario.
 
Last edited:

NSA

Brotherhood
Admin
Mar 13, 2011
28,623
969
113
Southern California
www.fighting118th.com
EDIT - and for God's sake put the product they are making readily available on their HTS website even if its in a pre-order / delayed shipping scenario.

God yes. I can't see a better scenario to find out what people want than to offer their own pre-orders for the figures/waves.

For example, if they KNOW the Shock Trooper is going to sell the fuck out, and have pre-order data to show that, why not make more?

Unlike vehicles, most collectors do not wait until Marshall's or another clearance store to get the figures. The good ones generally don't make it there, since the pricepoint is low enough ($10 ugh) for casual buyers and scalpers to buy up all the good figures at retail.

Just let us buy our plastic crack directly from the distributor.
 

MMorelock66

Isn't a Gijoe fan
Apr 4, 2012
4,661
2
0
the land of Virginia
I say one thing that would sell (Obi or Giga mentioned this elsewhere). Is to make a sub line. Back in the Valor vs Venom era, Hasbro was still manufacturing modern military figures at the 12 inch scale. Do the same, but make them 1:18 compatible. Hell, there are a ton of basic molds they have access to, many that resemble most modern fatigues.

Do it as a sub line, in stock with the main line. That way those ARAH loving guys can get version 1523 of Snake Eyes, and us modernists can get nicely articulated marines and Army Rangers.
 

NSA

Brotherhood
Admin
Mar 13, 2011
28,623
969
113
Southern California
www.fighting118th.com
Yes please.

Though with the Unimax military figures off the shelves at Target.. who even knows what the market would be for those figures. I'd say something like a Wal-mart exclusive, but then they'd be competing with CORPS!
 

G.I.*EDDIE

gobbles a LOT of cock
Founder
Mar 14, 2011
43,432
428
83
S.E. Mich :(
You know what I'd love to see, and anyone else who's played them may agree, a GIJOE ARAH LEGO game...you have the ability to play as one of 30-40 characters eventually and have the use of just as many vehicles, instantaneously...plus, as goofy as they are, they games are quite fun...
 

Giga Bread

Mega Calories!
Aug 20, 2011
6,368
20
38
44
Or morph Joe into something along the lines of Stormwatch Team Achilles and bring in super beings as the threat. A little ridiculous for lovers of realism, but could be something that would be popular.
 

Talisman

They Call me Sonic.
Jun 15, 2012
315
0
0
33
But the potential for what the AT could be might be interesting. Gear it towards extreme sports figures (rock climbing, repelling, skydiving, that one crazy ass guy with the squirrel suit). those could be some good figures with awesome accessories. Stuff that we could use, modify, etc.

Wasn't this done with the 12" Action Man line back in 2000? I remember that line pretty fondly- the cartoon was like James Bond meets Tony Hawk (when Tony Hawk was still cool).

That could, possibly, work. Especially when you consider that a lot of the "extreme sports" type stuff has been showcased in video games like Call of Duty- there's plenty of crossover here.
 

MMorelock66

Isn't a Gijoe fan
Apr 4, 2012
4,661
2
0
the land of Virginia
You know what I'd love to see, and anyone else who's played them may agree, a GIJOE ARAH LEGO game...you have the ability to play as one of 30-40 characters eventually and have the use of just as many vehicles, instantaneously...plus, as goofy as they are, they games are quite fun...

I played the fuck out of Lego Indiana Jones. Those games are so fun..