AV-8B first look.

Beeavision

Beeavision

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Personally, the Super Hind looks better.

Now, if they wanted to they could leave off the rivets all together and we could just glue them on ourselves using the decal rivets they use for model trains and such. From what I can tell the rivets on the hind aren't flush with the panels but rather beveled outward which makes it easier to add them on later. Just an idea.

 
G.I.*EDDIE

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Haha!...Bee, anyway you can send that pic to Jim...tell him we'll take care of own rivets...just make the damn things (vehicles)!
 
K-Tiger

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Beeavision said:
Personally, the Super Hind looks better.
Click to expand...

God, no. That thing is hideous with the 20mm, FLIR and camera kind of just stuck out there on the snout like a cheap body kit.


Which is more or less what they did.
 
ThunderDan19

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Heh, that Hind nose just keeps going farther and lower. I wonder if they had to replace the front gear with a longer one to keep the nose from bumping/dragging...

I guess it's a sign of the times that we are getting more "upgrades" and fewer new air/rotocraft throughout the world. And the ones we do get seem to take decades to develop and put into service. I guess that money is tight most everywhere.

Of course that's not to say that every upgrade is necessarily a "bolt on." The Zulu Cobra looks pretty sweet, as does the upgraded Huey. I didn't realize how far along the H-1 program was until I ran across a buttload of AH-1Z pics while checking out the Super Hind. That Zulu gives the Apache a run for the coolest US attack chopper these days (only because the Comanche was cancelled though... yes, I'm still bitter...).
 
K-Tiger

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The Russian and their helos.

First they hold competitions to replace the Hind. Kamov's Ka-50 beats out Mil's Mi-28.

Russians changer their minds, say "fuck it", go with the 28 because it's cheaper.

All the while they're nursing along the Mi-24 series with upgrades.

It's really akin to putting new stuff on an AH-1G or UH-1C.
 
ThunderDan19

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Honestly, we're pretty much running the same path over here, at least when it comes to rotos...

Design a phenominal new stealthy (and likely battlefield dominating) recon/attack helo in the Comanche. Get it prototyped and start performance testing. Looks good...

Cancel it in favor of an upgraded news chopper (strap on a rocket pod and a machine gun) in the Kiowa "Warrior." Transfer much of Comanche's tech to the Longbow Apache.

Upgrade the 60 year old Bell designs... again... - Huey and Cobra.

Finally replace the ancient Sea Knights with ultra modern tilt rotor Ospreys - yay!

Still depend on upgraded 60+ year old Chinooks to do the heavy lifting.

Utilize Comanche tech to make stealth Black Hawks for SOC.

...And the ARNG gets new hospital medevac choppers painted green in the UH-72.

Because of money and politics, we're all over the map...
 
K-Tiger

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I've seen those 72s in person. Can't believe we're using a Eurocopter.

It's like the Air Force. they want the shiny new fast-mover while their non-fighter birds are falling apart.
 
ThunderDan19

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Well, the A-10s got the Charlie upgrade a while back, and there's been talk of engine and wing upgrades too (haven't followed to see if those went through or not), so at least they should be okay until the F-35 replaces (ha!) them in another decade or so. The F-15E and F-16 are somewhat newer, and receive their structural refits and such, also to keep them in service until the F-35 arrives.

What I would like to know is what the AF is going to do to replace the extra hundreds of F-15s that will go out of service. They have fewer than 200 F-22s in service, with the program completed, and nothing planned to fill the air superiority fighter gap (about 400 F-15Cs, Ds & Es total in service) with when the F-15s retire.
 
ThunderDan19

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Usually it comes down to cost/ability to maintain and keep the airframe airworthy.
 
K-Tiger

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More than one of the airframes in our services have been out of production for decades.

Several of them simply can't be replaced.
 
ThunderDan19

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Well, you have the trade off of new expensive plane with new tech, more capability, lower maintenance costs and more dependability vs. older plane that is less capable, requires more maintenance and upgrades, has lower reliability and is less likely to be ready to fly, but is paid for.
 
K-Tiger

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Tell them the B-52 replacement will do Mach 2 and can engage 100 targets from 75 miles and the AF brass will fellate every member of congress to secure funding for it.
 
ThunderDan19

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Heh, no doubt. But... new airframes are pricey, thus why we are still flying the BUFF and the Ruskies the Bear, as our backbone bomber fleets.
 
thelegoguy

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When I was in the AF, we were pulling good components from aircraft that had landed to put on aircraft that were flying later that day. Back and forth.....every day. We had a cann(cannibalize) bird in the hangar that was a parts bitch. Pretty sad we couldnt even get replacements for some of the shit we had. Just rebuilt/reworked parts.

Its a God damn miracle those things stay in the air.
 
birddog

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ThunderDan19 said:
Well, the A-10s got the Charlie upgrade a while back, and there's been talk of engine and wing upgrades too (haven't followed to see if those went through or not), so at least they should be okay until the F-35 replaces (ha!) them in another decade or so.
Click to expand...

Wing upgrades have been happening as part of the SLEP (Service Life Extension Program) project but I highly doubt engine upgrades will happen. The engine upgrades have long been kicked around, even before the successful combat performances shown by the A-10 with the current engines. Looking at the cost of this upgrade coupled with the fact they are looking to mothball the A-10 soon, I seriously doubt they will fund engine upgrades. Sucks because you know a more powerful engine on the A-10 is the last thing to making it the best CAS platform ever built. Not that it already isn't by far.

I too shutter to think about how the Jack of All Trades Crap F-35 is going to replace the A-10...:whatever:....:slap:....it can't.
 
pcoughran

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G.I.*EDDIE said:
What dictates a planes retirement...age?
Click to expand...

Airframe fatique life. Airframes are designed for so many 1000s of hours of flight/fatigue. With the upgrades to the F-15s they are currently running tests to justify increasing the fatigue life so they can stay in service longer.
 
Apache26

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pcoughran said:
Airframe fatique life. Airframes are designed for so many 1000s of hours of flight/fatigue. With the upgrades to the F-15s they are currently running tests to justify increasing the fatigue life so they can stay in service longer.
Click to expand...

I'm sure the USAF stops maintaining certain planes simply because they want them to fall apart and then they can show Congress that they, REALLY, REALLY "NEED" the F-35.

Much depends on how much the service is willing to invest in, and stick with, an old aircraft. Old aircraft are not necessary more expensive and difficult to keep flying than new ones. The Huey is a good example. UH-1's remained in service for a LONG time because blade time and maintenance were significantly less costly than for Blackhawks and it was an established product. I find the adoption of the UH-72 to be ridiculous. It's basically doing the UH-1's job at the cost of producing a new helicopter. But the brass always wants shiny new toys. We don't like looking at "old" stuff because we assume "old" must mean "obsolete" or "inadequate".

The Army does the same things with its small arms. Our decisions on procuring weapons often has more in common with boys and toys then serious minded military men making sound decisions.
 
thelegoguy

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When I was in the AF, I was working on Ac-130 Gunships, both the H and U models, as well as the MH-53J/M. Those God damn airframes were from the Vietnam war....40 yrs ago!
 
K-Tiger

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Apache26 said:
Much depends on how much the service is willing to invest in, and stick with, an old aircraft. Old aircraft are not necessary more expensive and difficult to keep flying than new ones. The Huey is a good example. UH-1's remained in service for a LONG time because blade time and maintenance were significantly less costly than for Blackhawks and it was an established product. I find the adoption of the UH-72 to be ridiculous. It's basically doing the UH-1's job at the cost of producing a new helicopter. But the brass always wants shiny new toys. We don't like looking at "old" stuff because we assume "old" must mean "obsolete" or "inadequate".
Click to expand...

The Marines have proved what can still be done with the Huey. The 212/412 are probably still viable airframes, but like you said, shiny new toys
 
Midget

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K-Tiger said:
The Marines have proved what can still be done with the Huey. The 212/412 are probably still viable airframes, but like you said, shiny new toys
Click to expand...

We also know we don't get money for shit- we get what we get after (not necessarily in this order): the Air Force, Navy, Army, Army Reserves, Army National Guard, and the North Dakota's Women's auxiliary are done with the DoD budget.

Do More With Less. It's always been HQ Marine Corps' mantra since before World War I.
 
K-Tiger

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Midget said:
We also know we don't get money for shit- we get what we get after (not necessarily in this order): the Air Force, Navy, Army, Army Reserves, Army National Guard, and the North Dakota's Women's auxiliary are done with the DoD budget.

Do More With Less. It's always been HQ Marine Corps' mantra since before World War I.
Click to expand...

Air Force needs their shit drawn back. They need to be out of CAS and the smaller transport operations.

Procurement needs to be fixed altogether.
 
ThunderDan19

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It was rumored the Army was pledging to make a run for inventory of A-10s back when the AF was talking retirement for her. That was back before Desert Storm, during which the pointy jet top brass finally came to realize/accept the dominance of the Hog at CAS. Then they decided to keep her, and upgrade even!
 
Midget

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ThunderDan19 said:
It was rumored the Army was pledging to make a run for inventory of A-10s back when the AF was talking retirement for her. That was back before Desert Storm, during which the pointy jet top brass finally came to realize/accept the dominance of the Hog at CAS. Then they decided to keep her, and upgrade even!
Click to expand...

I heard the same- the USMC was eyeing it at the same time. I think the "Fighter Mafia" grudgingly accepted that they need a CAS plane in their inventory to stay relevant.... I still have no idea how they pulled off the F-22. They must have been all up in Congress's ass for that one.

For the record, for the Marine Corps, I don't think the F-35 is a solution to replacing the harrier.
 
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